Le texte suivant est une retranscription du chat de discussion qui a eu lieu pendant la diffusion en direct (depuis San Francisco) de l'épisode 2 "Secrets, Anonymity, and Transparency", le 27 février 2016 ///
The following is a transcript of the chat discussion that took place during the live broadcast (from San Francisco) of "Secrets, Anonymity, and Transparency" on 27 February 2016
The following is a transcript of the chat discussion that took place during the live broadcast (from San Francisco) of "Secrets, Anonymity, and Transparency" on 27 February 2016
Opératrice: Dear audience,
Opératrice: We are very happy to present to you today The Big Conversation Culture Channel, a mediated audiovisual experience of reflexion and inquiry about contemporary culture, to which the audience is wildly encouraged to give input. A collaboration between two artists (The Big Conversation Space) and a programmer (Alexander Rhobs), the BCC Channel is an experimental, online platform where video programming, live chat, and other time-based media distributed via live broadcast will be used to attempt to build new spaces for creative, critical, playful, and political dialogues, where cultural and civic engagement and debate may take place, and where contemporary history can be recorded (and challenged) using contemporary tools.
Opératrice: The first Episode, Love, Magic and Misdirection, addressed our need to be meaningfully related to others and create bonds, our habits in cultivating beliefs, and the failures or misunderstandings that we experience in our attempts to pursue either of those and maybe most of all, the belief in love.
Opératrice: Today, the Episode is entitled Secrets, Anonymity and Transparency, and aims to explore our growing anxieties concerning safety, security, privacy, freedom of opinion and of speech, and the liberty to choose our own systems of governing. We invite you to feel safe to say what you want during this screening, to express disagreements, to share your concerns and to raise questions that are impossible to answer. We believe it is important to ask them together.
Operator: Hello world!
Sacha: Hello !
anna: hello !
Operator: We'll be beginning very soon.. how is everyone doing?
Operator: Hello sacha, anna, hello123, and stephen!
Hello123: A little bit drunk and rather tired... let's see how long I last!
Operator: To introduce you to the broadcast, let me say a few words..
Operator: Tonight we will address issues of freedom of expression, privacy, truth, and openness. Is it possible to keep our identities fragmented or our communications secure in the times of mass Internet surveillance? What is (or could be) the role of contemporary art in building a global culture that favors equal access to knowledge and open governance? Is this something you want? How do governments choose to distinguish between investigative journalism, whistleblowing, and treason? How, why, and when do we decide to withhold knowledge, information, or feedback in our daily lives, both private and public, and what motivates us to share it?
Operator: During the broadcast we would like to hear some of your comments, some questions of maybe some objections to the content of what you are hearing and seeing today. In order for you to feel safe to say something we assure you that we can't track your IP address on the chat and therefore, we don't know who you are.
anna: Hey, Hello123, you were there this afternoon, no?
Operator: hello123, make sure to drink some fluids with electrolytes
Sacha: yes sure ! Electrolytes !!!!
Hello123: I was indeed!
Alexander: Ok ! I will lunch the video !
Alexander: Begin in 1'
Operator: wait, alexander
Alexander: ok I am waiting
Operator: a few words of introduction to the first videos
Hello123: Just got back in, saw the time and thought... allez!
Operator: the first video of the episode, which is an Interview of American artist Laura Kim, who lives and works in San Francisco. The video, entitled Inside the Artist's Filing System : Laura Kim and The Grand Export, explores how the Internet artist organizes her digital files. The representation of the creative process of the artist and artistic creation goes from being an object of fantasy, secrecy or romanticism to being comically mundane, through the transparency of the description of the process. A significant portion of the global population has digital files of some type, after all. What can we learn by going “behind the screens” of contemporary artists?
Operator: Then, we will dive into the second video: In this Book Review Chronicle, Clémence takes a look at the pamphlet “Vanishing Point : how to disappear in America without a trace” published in 2006 by Revolver and edited by Suzanne Burner after a text she found on the Internet (sic). Here Clémence provides an overview of the book and basic things to know if you ever need to disappear. She also questions the pamphlet's intentions and moral judgments expressed, and the context of its apparition that remain blurry. The romantic aspects of disappearance come to mind, as well as a popular fantasy to abandon everything and one's past, family or loved ones, to disappear and start over, as so many songs, films, books and plays address this cathartic desire.
Operator: and now we're ready to go :)
Alexander: Does everyone see the video start ?
Operator: I see it!
Alexander: If there is any problem just reload the page
Hello123: Her t-shirt is crazy cool
filemakerpro: cool files on that shirt
jean_deaux: ahem ouiiii
Operator: how often does everyone here delete their files?
mahmoud: append only
Operator: mahmoud, you don't delete?
mahmoud: a full drive is a celebratory artifact
mahmoud: time to provision more drives
Sacha: once a year
Sacha: spring cleaning
Operator: "provision" has a military air to it, as a word
mahmoud: really? they use it alllll the time at work. For me it means I get to go on Newegg and buy what Backblaze tells me won't fail (https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-reliability-q3-2015/)
mahmoud: i try to run a scrub once per week to get rid of bad drive blocks and such
Operator: what is a drive block?
Alexander: Thanks Mahmoud for this link, really interesting
mahmoud: they're the low level bits we never worry about when actually making original stuff
mahmoud: filesystems abstract em away
Operator: do you think in the eyes of the government, we are low level bits?
mahmoud: and yeah, i had to start reading those reviews after the seagate debacle. bought 8 drives, already 4 are donezo, but ZFS saved me
mahmoud: absolutely we are low level bits
Operator: interesting etymology to "provision" the noun: late 14c., "a providing beforehand, action of arranging in advance" (originally in reference to ecclesiastical appointments made before the position was vacant), from Old French provision "precaution, care" (early 14c.), from Latin provisionem (nominative provisio) "a foreseeing, foresight, preparation, prevention," noun of action from past participle stem of providere "look ahead" (see provide). Meaning "something provided" is attested from late 15c.; specific sense of "supply of food" is from c. 1600.
mahmoud: but the government can't make us redundant if we don't want to be
Alexander: what do you mean mahmoud ?
Alexander: by redundant I mean
jean_deaux: médias américain tente de rendre tout le monde la même chose, redondante
mahmoud: I have my drives in RAID-Z2, redundant array of inexpensive disks
mahmoud: good for technology, bad for humans
mahmoud: replaceability and commodification breed contempt on all sides, i think
Operator: French speakers: did jean_deaux say "American media is trying to make everyone the same, redundant"
Alexander: more understandable in english !
jean_deaux: est-il un problème avec mon français?
Alexander: if you mean that it seems to be a google translate
Operator: does the existence of different languages resist redundancy ?
Operator: in people I mean, human languages
mahmoud: haha, I think that's like, the bizarre story driver for Metal Gear V
mahmoud: but of course tho
Alexander: what's this "bizarre story"
Hello123: is anybody redundant? we've all got to hope that we're George Bailey's on some level
mahmoud: english in french doesn't sound the same as french, there's power in that
mahmoud: It's certainly a wonderful life
mahmoud: i don't really play video games, but i think it's like, central organization is trying to destroy the lingua franca, or maybe destroy every language besides the lingua franca
Operator: yikes, the eng wiki page for George Balley's got some issues
Operator: "This page needs to have more explanation. It is woefully inadequate. What's the bank he works for, for instance"
Hello123: The Buildings and loan... something or other...
Stephen: "This article describes a work or element of fiction in a primarily in-universe style."
Stephen: My favorite Wikipedia warning
Hello123: haha. wierd
Operator: that is a great warning!
Alexander: yop !
Operator: would you be concerned about how you'd be described in a wikipedia article is you vanished without a trace, and the only information available about you was from your computer and hard drive?
Operator: (and this was the information referenced by journalists, which then served as citations in your wiki article)
mahmoud: i'd be glad if it were actually coming from _my_ hard drives
mahmoud: problem is that I'm too spread out
mahmoud: people are gonna think Twitter me is real me (Sponsored content: https://twitter.com/mhashemi )
Alexander: And by the way you can click on the person on the bottom left for more quote
Operator: okay, here's the next batch of videos!
Operator: this video introduces itself..
Operator: let me just note that Battleship Potemkin is a dramatized version of the mutiny that occurred aboard the Battleship Potemkin in 1905 and is widely considered to be a landmark achievement in using film as a medium of propaganda.
filemaker69: it's like the data has built-in metadata
filemakerpro: I LOVE metadata
Alexander: open graph
Operator: has anyone here's online/telephonic behavior changed since Snowden's revelations?
mahmoud: yeah snowden barely calls me anymore
mahmoud: (but no)
mahmoud: (not related to the revelations)
Stephen: I haven't changed, really
filemakerpro: and mahmoud, you barely call me anymore
Stephen: but I now feel safe continuing to never call people
Stephen: but I now feel safe continuing to never call people
mahmoud: @filemakerpro we go double or nothing: what are those digits?
mpc3032at: is that glenn greenwald (sp?)
Hello123: I was so freaked out after citizenfour but if I'm honest I haven't changed anything
filemakerpro: mahmoud: 834-1735
Hello123: I give google all my info to make my life easier. I am what I hate
Operator: it would be nice to have a search engine that collects less
mahmoud: i got freaked out way before citizenfour, because i figured i was being monitored plenty, the thought of my all-american friends being monitored to that degree made my own monitoring state unestimable
Operator: okay, 4. The fourth Video is shot at a cultural event in Paris on October 31st 2015, named Protocultural. This project is a series of events organized by a group of people to support the encounter of archaeological exploration of art with recent digital practices. It gathers scientists, artists and programmers to develop new forms of artistic and technological expressions based on historical art materials. Their current project is named #NewPalmyra and consists in part of rebuilding in 3D the ancient city of Palmyra in Syria, many of whose ruins were recently destroyed by ISIS. The group then to make it available to the public and to preserve its memory. The project was started by open source programmer and Creative Commons volunteer Bassel Khartabil who has been illegally detained in Syria by the government since march 2012, and whose whereabouts have been unknown since October 2015, when he was moved from his prison cell to an unknown location.
mahmoud: @filemakerpro am i supposed to estimate the area code?? ;)
anna: is there an alternative to google? for researches?
Stephen: you can try duck duck go...
mahmoud: absolutely! scopus or like, ISI, pubmed for medical stuff, Wikipedia for everyone...
mahmoud: duck duck go isn't for research!
anna: ok! i will have a look
Stephen: researching the web
anna: what is it for?
anna: oh yes, i meant search engine
mahmoud: general searching
Operator: 5. In the fifth video, we look at the Public Archives to take a closer look on issues of legislation surrounding surveillance and intelligence methods of inquiry in the public and private space. Recent laws on that matter in France have raised questions and weariness after the NSA scandals in 2013. Failures in the existing intelligence operations have been shown when facing a growing number of terrorist attacks on French soil from 2012 to 2015. Those threats and the fear they provoke raise many issues around the efficiency of intelligence services and at the same time the preservation of individual rights to privacy and freedom of opinion and religion. We will listen to Manuel Valls defend the law on intelligence operations in April 2015 in front of the National Assembly.
mahmoud: well, there is no easier, more-effective general alternative
mahmoud: you can turn to other methods of searching, but they become more browsing-like
mahmoud: like you can browse wikipedia by topic and find things which are actually ungoogleable
mahmoud: but google has shaped internet society to rely very heavily on searching
mahmoud: so they can direct any incidental browsing to their own channels
anna: hmm... ok... :-/
Operator: we need new ways to "seek" that aren't "searching"
Operator: or a return to the old.. like asking a wise person who you know
Lisa: but those answers take too long ;)
mahmoud: no, they just save an immeasurable amount of time
Operator: does google's shaping of our means of understanding what it means to seek information also shape the governments' understanding of how to conduct investigations?
mahmoud: google is quantifiably the fastest
Operator: hi lisa!
Stephen: @operator: for sure
mahmoud: i have an idea
Lisa: i just wonder what the insistence on 'immediate gratification' afforded by search engines does to our own ability to recall information. then the impact, in turn, on collective recall altogether...
mahmoud: what if you can create an easy top-level decision tree, very shallow, that would allow one to plug together more-specific, better search engines that are better than google as a whole
Operator: lisa, totally
mahmoud: like, if you want to search for general concepts, wikipedia, if you want to search for news, use twitter, if you want search for articles, use scopus or some wiki thing, etc. etc.
Operator: and what is that doing to the way children develop their worldviews?
mahmoud: if you want media, search flickr/commons/archive.org
Stephen: are you trying to recreate a meta search engine?
mahmoud: yes, but in your mind
Lisa: their worldviews are shaped by the engines they use
mahmoud: top google results usually involve wikipedia, why not just search wikipedia directly
mahmoud: you'll get different results, you'll be a more unique person, you will deter redundancy
Operator: How much should we tolerate our freedoms to be restricted in the name of security ?
Alexander: Sorry I have a connection problem here
Lisa: for what it is worth, i do appreciate google's reliance on algorithms to reinforce and penalize "phony" content (that is claimed to be tagged with certain content, but that content actually doesn't appear). it keeps us a 'bit' more honest. but i digress
Alexander: just 2 minutes
mahmoud: that content was created to exploit the gaps that google itself created!
Lisa: we personally or we the collective?
Operator: lisa, both
Stephen: the name of security or real security?
Operator: real security
Stephen: I like real security, but I have a lot of doubt in most people who claim to offer it
Operator: Also, as a follow up to the Protocultural video: Please also that the upcoming date of March 15th marks 4 years since Bassel Khartabil was arrested.
Lisa: that is very sad to know it's been that long by now...
Operator: there is this petition you can sign, or share on 15 march to help support
mahmoud: the thing about google is that it's not so much good at "finding" as it is guessing what people are actually looking for. so if we can create a modern hierarchy of internet searching needs, you can probably replace google by just a titch less laziness in articulating what you want. but that does take 200ms longer at least.
mahmoud: it seems like a good contingency plan though
Operator: it's a long url because there is arabic script in the url
mahmoud: it's just a matter of time til we have to stage a protest and #OffGoogle
Operator: Bassel did a lot of work on web programs to make them work in arabic, like the Firefox broswer
Operator: it is very sad
Lisa: contingency is good - imagine if we had to rely on bing
Operator: Now the next section: Our section Letters to the Editor / Courrier des lecteurs, shows comments and questions that were sent to the Big Conversation Space during a live presentation of a preview of this second episode of BCC Channel. The students were invited to comment anonymously by sending text messages that would then be read back by the speaker to the audience.
mahmoud: ahhh nice
mahmoud: still waiting on those digits @filemakerpro! I'll text u feedback
filemakerpro: The last video is entitled : “An anonymous art show review, What people really think about when they see art”. It features two anonymous visitors tries to capture their conversation and commentaries or reactions when visiting an exhibition. The exhibition reviewed is an art show entitled “Co-workers, le réseau comme artiste” at Musée d'Art Moderne de la ville de Paris in the fall of 2015. From the website of the museum, the visitor can find the following information : “CO-WORKERS – Network as Artist is a selection of international artists trained during the 2000s whose innovative practices are largely based on networking.” This show was chosen because of how its subject resonates with the one of transparency and circulation of the information since the so-called digital revolution. It is hoped that the relative anonymity of the visitors and the discreet dispositive of recording allow the viewers to speak a little more freely than when one has to write an academic critique in the press or art magazines. We also hope to give importance to the experience and pragmatic aspects of seeing artworks in an exhibition environment in order to question today’s practices.
mahmoud: and re: google contingency, it's not just because of google's bad security policies and corporate agenda, it's that it's a consumer company. when it guesses what you want, it errs on the side of what's popular at the moment. it's much less likely to give you raw material suitable for creation and recreation.
filemakerpro: the ruse of the filemaker is revealed
Operator: way to go, filemaker
Operator: where'd you get that text?
filemaker69: i knew it
filemakerpro: filemaker69, are you who I think you are, the Cheddar Man?
filemaker69: vermont white, 1 year old
Lisa: i do have to say, when i wax back to the halcyon days of the internet ca. 1996, I remember a distinct satisfaction in 'finding' the actual content you were looking for after scrolling through pages and pages of content. a satisfaction you don't really get in a post alta vista world :)
Operator: hal·cy·on ˈhalsēən/Submit adjective 1. denoting a period of time in the past that was idyllically happy and peaceful.
Operator: was it so idyllic?
jean_deaux: c'est la vie
Lisa: idyllic? hardly. but it was novel
Stephen: what's everyone's favorite internet year?
Operator: speaking of algorithms..
mahmoud: what are you O(n) about
Lisa: there's a certain comfort to be had in algorithms
Operator: personally, 2011 was one of my favorite internet years as that was the year star trek: deep space nine became available on netflix streaming
Lisa: great question, Stephen!
Lisa: what year did they stop capping your free trial on AOL?
mahmoud: faaaavorite internet year, probably like, 2019
anna: i am a bit nostalgic of my first years with internet, when I was a teenager
mahmoud: in 2002 I downloaded all of textfiles.com via dialup to Iran
mahmoud: it was rough, real rough
mahmoud: download managers
filemakerpro: 1969 is my favorite internet year, as in a way that's when the internet was born, when the first successful message on the ARPANET was sent by UCLA student programmer Charley Kline, at 10:30 pm on 29 October 1969, from Boelter Hall 3420
mahmoud: "mahmoud: http://fabianburghardt.de/webolution/"
mahmoud: i did see this site, but i did not paste that :P
Stephen: I liked the era of pixel art sites
mahmoud: man, i tried soooo hard in dreamweaver
Alexander: Thanks mahmoud
Stephen: tables worked so well! I never understood the hate
Alexander: again a fun link
Lisa: I concur: 1998
Alexander: Do you have a link for 1998?
mahmoud: yes, but wasn't 1998 just generally great? you have to normalize for general greatness.
mahmoud: arguably i should have said 2013, even though it was a terrible year for Internet denizens, but Stephen and I _were_ on L'Oeil de Links
The real Alexander: rrr
Stephen: 2003 may have been my best internet year in france
The real Alexander: why ?
OfficialAlexanderVEVO: like subscribe and share!
The real Alexander: ahahaha
The real Alexander: I think I recognized the humour
The real Alexander: ?
Operator: does anonymity make it easier for you to share what you think/feel?
The real Alexander: no
Lisa: in certain topics I think so
filemakerpro: not for me
Lisa: but generally speaking, i'm pretty open
filemakerpro: I'm pseudoanonymous, though
The real not the fake one real Alexander: not really
mahmoud: I find it does! But I don't know that sharing is always the best course of action in the long run.
Stephen: I think it's good to have control of your identity
Stephen: some people are lucky enough to have that with their "real" names
mahmoud: stephen is behind 5 firewalls and dares any of you to challenge his identity
Stephen: anonymity gives other people some degree of control they wouldn't get otherwise
mahmoud: i'm the #1 Google result for Mahmoud
Operator: but do we have control of our identity? I mean we didn't decide who our parents are and where our genes come from
mahmoud: that's pretty crazy when it's like, the fifth most popular name in the middle east
Stephen: @mahmoud, you are getting personalized google results
Stephen: from searching yourself so much
Operator: mahmoud, not for me, this is the #1 google for mahmoud when I search: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_(horse)
mahmoud: ohhh right, no, i meant mahmoud hashemi
mahmoud: mahmoud + hashemi, both very popular
mahmoud: i will never beat out Mahmoud (horse)
mahmoud: he's french bred
Operator: so, as we are now wrapping up, I have a very important question:
Stephen: that domain is $68.90!
Stephen: way too much for a joke
Operator: do you feel that this chat distracts or compliments your viewing experience?
filemaker69: they should have rounded up
mahmoud: i like the chat!
Stephen: chat is great
anna: i like the chat too :)
Alexander: I can read and watch for hours
mahmoud: more videos? shorter videos? longer intermissions maybe
lance: In my opinion the lack of public recognition of ones identity causes ones moral compass to be swayed off their "norm" which more often than not results in negative or mean spirited responses. I can see where anonymity in political discussion especially in restrictive governments can be positive but in general I am not a fan
Operator: if you were to take a multiple choice test that tested your "viewing comprehension" of the content of the broadcast, do you think you'd pass?
Alexander: yes for longer intermissions
Stephen: @operator: it depends on the language of the video
Stephen: it's easier for me to chat and listen/watch english
Stephen: than read subtitles
anna: the intermissions were helpfull
Stephen: @Alexander: do you have a timestamp for the chat, sync'ed with the stream?
Stephen: it might be interesting to reconstruct what we said as it played
Stephen: especially across both broadcasts
Operator: is our moral compass connected to our awareness of how our actions are perceived/experienced?
Operator: does being identifiable make us more empathetic?
Lisa: i found it hard to keep up with both - but that just might be the limitations of my own cognitive abilities :) but I loved the questions and the discussion!
Alexander: And unfortunately no
anna: @stephen : good suggestion
Alexander: but with the intervention of the operator and the "quit" constant frequency of the chat messages I can build something I think
lance: being empathetic is related to be identifiable because as humans we get something out of the fact that people recognize us as empathetic
Alexander: But maybe, I have to chek the data base
mahmoud: IRL video art shows just loop the videos right? If you'd've gone for round 2 I wouldn't've complained, but short and sweet also works. :)
Lisa: i think in some cases being unidentifiable can make us more empathetic - to the extent that it affords us the ability to be more vulnerable to another person
Lisa: conversely, it's easy to be unempathetic when you're anonymous. so i guess i talked myself out of that one
Operator: @lance but artificial intelligences, even rudimentary ones like ELIZA (http://psych.fullerton.edu/mbirnbaum/psych101/Eliza.htm) give the appearance of empathy, despite not being connected to any sentient identity
Alexander: @Stephen : Wonderful I've got one !
Operator: this episode will be avaiable as a replay on this site
Operator: (in response to mahmoud's comment about round 2)
lance: I may be somewhat cynical but in general I believe that human's are motivated by self interest and the good ones are those with self interests that are beneficial to the general well being of the species
Stephen: @Alexander: very cool!
Operator: are all lifeforms motivated by self interest, but in an artificial intelligence we might be able to create something different?
mahmoud: i think that's part of many theories
lance: @operator the whole concept of AI and its implications on what is really human is a fascinating subject and one that we are only just now scratching the surface
mahmoud: intelligence without actual self-awareness
Lisa: i think you could manufacture self-awareness
mahmoud: wait, is it possible to be self-interested if you're not self-aware?
Operator: @mahmoud, some might argue that's not possible with how we define "intelligence"
Lisa: touche, mahmoud
mahmoud: such is the fuzzy distinction between "strong" and "weak" AI
Operator: what is awareness?
Operator: some argue that self-awareness is the awareness of being conscious
Operator: I have a good quote, hold on..
mahmoud: self-conscious about quote quality i see
Operator: I can't find the book..
Operator: it's something about "the remembered present"
Operator: like consciousness is connected to the idea of being aware of your memory, your ability to recall things, as they are taking place
Lisa: but people with certain amnesias can still be self-aware
Lisa: like the ability to only form short-term memories
Operator: yea, perhaps I'm remiss to equate self-awareness with self-consciousness
Lisa: no i think it's an interesting concept
Operator: "While consciousness is a term given to being aware of one’s environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness"
Operator: well, let's all think about these questions raised tonight as we go about our lives, henceforth
Operator: I shall now conclude this juncture
Lisa: this was really cool - thanks for putting this together!
Operator: Thank you for watching and for listening today. In conclusion I remind you that The BCC Channel is supported by le149.net, and the full version of Episode two will be available to watch in replay for the next few months on your personal computers. TBCS and Alexander Rhobs want to thank le149.net (Anna Hess and Sacha Beraud) and all the artists and participants involved in the making of this episode: Laura Kim, Alyn Divine, Stephen LaPorte, the team of Protocultural, our two anonymous museum visitors, Mattthieu de Montgolfier for the logo.
lance: Self awareness is, I believe related to the moment so people with dementia, and or amnesia are self aware, they just don't necessarily benefit from recent learning or past learning respectivley
Operator: thanks, lisa!
Alexander: Yes thanks everyone !
lance: Thanks to all
Operator: thanks everyone for joining!
Stephen: thanks, operator!
Lisa: i really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness!
Stephen: thanks, operator!
Lisa: let it be known in the record that operator is awesome
Stephen: also, thanks Alexander
lance: Yes said operator is awesome Lisa
Operator: the next episode comes in June!
Lisa: i look forward to it!
Alexander: See you in june everyone
Alexander: me too !!!
Operator: The next episode is "Dreams, fantasies, and desires"
mahmoud: awesome, looking forward to it!
Operator: thanks :)
Lisa: enjoy your evenings, or morning as the timezone has it!
Alexander: 3:25am here...
Alexander: all the best to everyone
Operator: sleep well, to those in Europe! :)
Operator: and thank you to drivel.biz for some .gifs that were used in this episode
Lisa: Alexander - hope you can get some sleep, perhaps with some thoughts of 1998 dancing in your head
Operator: good night/day and good luck!
Alexander: Ha hope soo too
mahmoud: http://drivel.biz/ for all your drivel needs
mahmoud: view our latest prospectus: http://drivel.biz/prospectus